How google intends to stop Sailfish and others from running Android apps - Jolla General Talk Discussions on JollaTides Community Port

KnuX · Post edited by KnuX at 2013-11-11 11:06:08

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/
is a very interesting read.

We're used (at least I was) to think that google controls Android mainly through the Play store, and the "gapps" that are not available elsewhere.
But it seems they have been working on a "more effective" technique -- making most apps depend on their closed APIs.

This got me thinking about the Android compatibility in Sailfish and others. For apps that use the google APIs, either we'll have to pirate the google APIs or clone them. It's not just a question of getting the APK you paid for from your Android tablet/phone.
But it seems that this will increasingly become a factor in real Android compatibility.

Honestly, it's scary. Android is really gonna become the new Windows, and being opensource won't save us from the same woes we had last time.
Some food for thought...

JollaTides

Really interesting read KnuX thanks for posting! :)

I think this gives even more impetus for Sailfish to have as many native apps as possible.

andreibechet

Interesting article ... I was actually wondering how Jolla will be able to offer this compatibility, and after reading this article I am becoming more and more concerned. But let's wait till the end and hope for the best. Anyways, more native apps means better services :)

Off-topic: Given this article I'd rather choose apple than google. Somehow with them you already know what you're getting into, whereas with google...it is evolving into something else which I don't like.

KnuX

Android apps should really be a stopgap solution, yes. But it's sad that the situation won't be as good as previously thought. It will be hard to bootstrap an app ecosystem, and while I think jolla is doing some right things, I think they could do better, as they need all the help they can get.

I'll not get into an Apple x Android discussion, but you're saying that you'd rather know that you're going to prison, than being told you're free, but with a curfew.

andreibechet

What would you think they can do better?

And what other stores are there? I have found: Amazon, F-Droid (which we do see in one of the screenshots) - just after taking the 1st website after searching for it (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/android-app-stores/). What is your experience with them? Has anyone tried them? (I do not own currently an android phone ...)

Apple x Android: yeah, me neither, so let's stop here. You captured exactly what I wanted to say ... i'd rather know the truth (or as much as possible).

KnuX

I really think that they should release a complete environment for the N9 (or even the N900), for instance.
It might not be usable as a phone (no drivers for that, etc), but you could use it to further develop applications.
Hell, maybe even for a common device, like the Nexus 4, like Canonical is doing. Again, it doesn't have to work as a phone, but it would be an excellent dev environment for testing.

In addition, I really wish they were a bit more upfront about how they intend to support the jolla phone. If I spend my hard earned money on the jolla phone, and jolla takes off, will they do their best to continue to support my device?

I know they might not be 100% sure, but they could state that they will work their best on it (and I would believe them). But if they say nothing, I'm not very confortable, I don't wanna end up like the N900 -> N9 situation, where you're basically stuck with what you had, and without many applications. I knew it was a risk when I bought the N900, but it doesn't have to be if they are more upfront about providing support.

I daresay the N900/N9 community likes to keep their devices longer than normal these days, and details such as these are important for us/them, IMHO.

KnuX

As for stores... The amazon one is region-restricted, even the free stuff, so I can't comment other than it's stupid that you can install the store and browse it, but every time you try to install even free apps it tells you you can't (I'm from Portugal).

F-droid reminds me A LOT of the N900 repos. Only nice open-source applications, some of them aren't even in google's market, some were banned from there. But like the N900 repos, you don't have a lot of choice.

You also have aptoide: www.aptoide.com . It's a bit like apt-get for android, where you can have multiple repositories (the original idea was proposed by an apt-get developer that works at Caixa Mágica Linux). But it's a bit of a jungle: anyone can upload anything, and it relies on the community to spot bad things, and so I tend to distrust apps from it, especially those that ask for a lot of privacy-sensitive permissions.

I guess with more people interested the Sailfish community could rally around an Aptoide repository by carefully picking tested and known-good applications.

andreibechet

Interesting point. I never had the opportunity to even come across a nokia n9. I also like to keep my phone for as long as I can, so I understand the things about the details.

I feel that they should tell us more, although if they would release something for nexus they would cannibalize a bit their sales (especially from the cost point of view). As for n9 image ... did they not leak something last week?

KnuX

I believe it wouldn't cannibalize their sales because it would never be a full device, it would be more like a glorified Sailfish tablet. But I do believe the OS needs to be out there, in as many hands as possible. It's not a magic sauce that will convert everyone, but as I said, every bit helps.

I haven't used an N9 myself either. I went down the other path, N900 -> Xperia Pro (Android+Qwerty) -> Captivate Glide (Android+Qwerty). I'm one of those :P

andreibechet

I do agree that the OS should be out there but how can one break some stuff to make it more of a tablet?

I am also one of those ... i stayed with a Blackberry 9000 for a lot just for the qwerty keyboard. Somehow android did not impress me ... maybe a bit lately.

KnuX

Well, if the phone part does not work correctly :p. Also audio, wifi, ...

It's very hard to find qwerty phones outside the US these days. I think the Xperia Pro was the last qwerty smartphone you could get in Europe, and honestly, although the hardware was a clear step up from the N900, Android was VERY crappy on it (512mb ram is very low-end for Android...).
My Samsung Captivate Glide was imported by a friend and is branded by AT&T. I think I'll still upgrade to the Galaxy S Relay 4G (which doesn't have LTE...), but those are branded by T-Mobile.

After that... Jolla maybe?

andreibechet

I would have been lost right now if it weren't for Jolla. In my opinion what samsung does is simply ugly (both design of the phone and the UI and UX), HTC is doing ok but too expensive, Sony same as HTC, LG i also consider to be ugly ... what is left? Nexus? maybe ... Although for that price it is definitely the only option left. But then I don't want android ... so I am left with Apple which is very expensive and BB which is also expensive and a bit crappy ... so? Thank you Jolla for the other option :)

PS: not a fan of Ubuntu

JollaTides

I've been down so many options since the N900 without success it's not even funny!

Right now I'm playing with a Z10 if only to learn how the Android side loading works in preparation for my Jolla... on the whole it's been the best out of a bad bunch including Android; IOS; WP. The android ports can be temperamental depending on versions, but I somehow think Sailfish will have improvements in this regard over BB.

Obviously the UI of Sailfish is the best I've encountered hands down and that comes from 1st hand experience. ;)

KnuX

@andreibechet: I agree, Samsung roms are usually very ugly. When I switched from my SE to the Samsung I said to myself "I'm gonna try the stock ROM". 24 hours later I was on CyanogenMod.
That's the solution, for most of them. Go back to stock android or cyanogen, and add whatever's missing from there (and there's a lot missing).

I must say the thing that really makes my mouth water about Sailfish is having true multitasking again. Android multitasking plain sucks: apps just stop what they are doing whenever you switch away. I commute by boat and don't have great connectivity during the trip, so having multiple browser windows loading while I did something else was a daily thing on my N900. With Android, it's one-thing-at-a-time-land. Especially hate that the default browser doesn't cache anything at all, and if you switch away it might end up unloading that page that cost you time and limited data allowance to get the first time.

richardski

The Arstechnica Android/Google "exposé" clearly shows that Jolla is likely to be the only manufacturer able to supply a system that is truly open as in FOSS and Free Software Foundation and Jolla should clearly seek FSF endorsement for open source to capitalise on this unique selling point.

The cost, performance, or cuteness appeal of compromised commercially restricted systems are irrelevant as gold handcuffs are still handcuffs. Proprietary code is tainted by the betrayal of its paying customers to the various NSS/GCHQ/CIA "security" services and the criminals they employ knowingly or otherwise. The security they seek to preserve is that of their own cushy jobs playing with the latest tech intercept toys.

We do all need to support Jolla in the hope that we may be able to preserve a modicum of privacy and security on our phone communications.

Richard

KnuX

Hmm richardski, I would bet you that the jolla phone will come with blobs for most subsystems (graphics, modem, possibly sound, video decoding, etc).
And Jolla also plainly stated that there are parts of Sailfish that will be proprietary and closed-source, at least for some time.

So if you want 100% free, I don't think you'll find in here either. Other things, yeah, but freedom... not really.

richardski · Post edited by richardski at 2013-11-13 05:29:52

Even Intel has seen the light of FOSS and released a new board - Minnow - that is very open source and Intel is striving to enable the Coreboot, the open source bios, for it. Quite simply you cannot make a secure firewall or intrusion detection system if the hardware is running unknown "secret" code that could be compromised. Blind faith in the honesty of suppliers has been shown to be a false belief.

There are many phones and operating systems out there that are hostile to their users. It is no good for Jolla to be just another one of these. People complain about ID cards but willingly carry a personal tracking device that reports its position to the phone network's Home Location Register. The Mobile Network Operators store the HLR data and historically know where the phones have been and will share that information with the "security" services. Your location history is not private anymore.

It would be a great selling point to show that there are no binary blobs on your phone that could be used to compromise your security and privacy. There is a gap in the market for a FOSS phone and Jolla could exploit this oportunity.

Richard

KnuX

@richardski I think you are getting too much off-topic here.

We're discussing mainly Android and the Sailfish Android compatibility layer. Which, as far as we've seen, is going to be another closed-source part.

And that, for instance, is an important point for the discussion.

andreibechet

What about this Yandex store? Is it any good? Like for example, are the Spotify or Dropbox apps present in it?

JollaTides · Post edited by JollaTides at 2013-11-13 11:53:03

andreibechet said:
What about this Yandex store? Is it any good? Like for example, are the Spotify or Dropbox apps present in it?

Here's a link/ but yes I think so. We've already seen spotify on images of the Jolla handset and many other popular name apps. ;-)

andreibechet · Post edited by andreibechet at 2013-11-13 12:38:55

Thanks. I found that link, but i was curious on exploring the app store itself (and I was not able to do that from that link). Anyways, a friend is visiting next week and fortunately he has just bought a nexus 5, so I will have a chance to look for what I need.

KnuX · Post edited by KnuX at 2013-11-13 12:40:11

Never used it before, but just installed it now.

Creating an account is a pain in the ass, and you don't give your e-mail, but instead your name for "recovery purposes". Seems an awful idea. So be careful if you loose your account, because only name + security question gets it back.

Important/relevant apps I've seen available (you can look them up in the google play store):
Free: Skype / Spotify / Adobe Reader / MX Player / Opera / ES File Explorer / Facebook / Evernote / Dolphin Browser / WeChat / Firefox / Twitter / Foursquare / Titanium Backup / OfficeSuite Viewer 7 / ICQ / VLC / AnTuTu / Wikipedia / Box / BSPlayer / Note Everything / Kingsoft Office
Paid: OfficeSuite Pro 7 / Nothing else of interest, really. Pretty bad paid app choices.

Games:
Free: Angry Birds / AB Space / AB SW / Draw Something Free / Frozen Bubble
Paid: Draw Something / Mojo GBA / Mojo SNES

Overall a reasonable set of free apps, but paid apps, free games and paid games have a very very weak and lame selection.

Paid stuff is especially disappointing, because some of them depend on the google play store/services and are hard to transfer between devices --- the free stuff you can always copy the apk.

Some important apps missing: WhatsApp / Fon / Any kind of mapping app.

Honestly, I'll probably uninstall the store later today.

Ed: Feel free to ask me if your favorite app is in there :)

andreibechet

Nice small review. Thanks. Presumably this app store doesn't make sense if you already have Google Play store. Anyways, maybe stuff will evolve in the following months of next year.

JollaTides

KnuX said:
Paid stuff is especially disappointing, because some of them depend on the google play store/services and are hard to transfer between devices --- the free stuff you can always copy the apk.

Some important apps missing: WhatsApp / Fon / Any kind of mapping app

Thanks for the write up Knux!

Out of interest, what version of Android are you running because there might be more/less apps available depending on the version ?

I'll also test later and let you know... ;-)

PS. IIRC whatsapp (or a version of) is definitely covered but maybe not android version - that has been mentioned via N9 developers and evidenced by one of the Jolla photos I've seen in photos previously.

KnuX

I'm using Android 4.2.2 which although not the latest-awesome 4.4 I haven't heard of any apps that need a more recent Android than this one.

JollaTides

KnuX said:
I'm using Android 4.2.2 which although not the latest-awesome 4.4 I haven't heard of any apps that need a more recent Android than this one.

From all accounts 4.2.2 is solid as far as Android goes - I'm way behind with only having tried Gingerbread and ICS.

BTW, I just tried downloading Yandex with Gingerbread but got err msg so assume it's too old.

It will be interesting to find out what version of Android Jolla/Yandex supports although I suspect it's at least Jelly Bean initially and updates will be ongoing. AFAIK, I don't think we've had those details yet ?

KnuX

JollaTides said:
It will be interesting to find out what version of Android Jolla/Yandex supports although I suspect it's at least Jelly Bean initially and updates will be ongoing. AFAIK, I don't think we've had those details yet ?

Yes, indeed, that's one of the things I really would like some more information on.

You mentioned that you tested the Z10 Android compatibility. What Android version did it emulate/simulate/implement?

JollaTides

@KnuX - It's recently had an update in the past weeks so it's now up to speed with Android 4.2 jelly bean.

KnuX

JollaTides said:
@KnuX - It's recently had an update in the past weeks so it's now up to speed with Android 4.2 jelly bean.

And how is app compatibility? Do games work?
Can you get the google apps by sideloading?
How are Android notifications presented to users?

I guess I'm really curious to see the potential of it.

JollaTides · Post edited by JollaTides at 2013-11-15 18:27:37

KnuX said:

JollaTides said:
@KnuX - It's recently had an update in the past weeks so it's now up to speed with Android 4.2 jelly bean.

And how is app compatibility? Do games work?
Can you get the google apps by sideloading?
How are Android notifications presented to users?

I guess I'm really curious to see the potential of it.

App compatibility is about 50/50 but usually if you look hard enough you'll find a version that works. Some load slow and appear laggy but run fine. Others don't load at all. And then the other +/- 50% are fine.

The only way is to sideload and you also need a PC with internet connection and have to convert the APK file to a BAR file using separate software, so it's not so easy for the casual user and even for the power user can be a hassle if you don't have laptop/pc and need to get something quickly.

Notifications... hmm good question, they seem to come through in the message centre fine for the ones I've tested but I haven't really paid too close attention tbh.

I think the Jolla phone will be much easier in terms of Android app integration with the ability to download direct from the phone. Also I'm guessing the apps shouldn't be as hit and miss as BB10 because Jolla will be vetting all the android apps that end up in the store.

KnuX

Thanks for the writeup. It does seem a little limited, but let's see what Jolla can cook up. After all, Myriad has been working on this since N900 times...

JollaTides

Yes it was funny Myriad seemed to disappear into thin air after all their hype with the N900 and then there was Open Mobile who seemed to suggest they could add this kind of functionality to the N9... I guess both companies were just waiting for Nokia to license their software but that never panned out. Oh how times have changed....

KnuX

I think they should have gone to the end-users.

Of course, they wanted the "easy" big cash lump, but I bet most N900 users would have gladly paid them for their software (I know I would... and still probably today if it wasn't too expensive).

Same for N9 users.

JollaTides

Yeah agree. They could have charged a small fee and had done with it. But I suppose, without Nokia support, the grey area would have been in terms of responsibility if it ended up bricking your phone.

I actually spoke with the open mobile guy back when they announced their intention of being N9 compatible, but it was clear they were after the big fish eg. Nokia.

KnuX · Post edited by KnuX at 2013-11-28 15:15:18

I guess we'll get used to seeing this dialog...

andreibechet

Ah well ... not like we weren't expecting something like this.

JollaTides

I think with eg. the BB10 android layer, an app will just crash if an installed android app requires google play services.

At least Sailfish seems to inform you with this message.

andreibechet

JollaTides said:
I think with eg. the BB10 android layer, an app will just crash if an installed android app requires google play services.

At least Sailfish seems to inform you with this message.

Might not be due to Jolla directly, but due to the emulator which creates non-google android like conditions (in BB is just a compatibility layer right).

blitzschlag

i don't think its the "emulator" or better virtual application layer that causes the problem. its just the apps that need activation (licensing or tracking) from the play-store. the play-store itself probably revokes connections from non-android devices.

probably best to avoid such apps anyway. I know thats not the bests/easiest solution as there might be no usable replacement for some.

andreibechet

I was talking about the reason for the "nice" popup. But yes ... somehow better avoid such applications (I can live without foursquare :P).

KnuX

Let's just hope that the trend goes toward less apps needing these libraries, instead of more.
Otherwise all this Android compatibility work becomes useless if you can only run "Hello World".

andreibechet

http://jollafin.blogspot.fi/2013/11/play-store-for-jolla.html

Read through the comments. They do suggest some interesting stuff ... maybe we have a chance of running some of the apps which would normally wouldn't.

blitzschlag

for me personally i can't think of an app that i deem important or a gamebreaker that needs google-store.
After all the Jolla is not supposed to be a business or production phone anyway...

andreibechet

I also agree, but maybe one day you need one app and why should you not be able to use it just because Google is an asshole.

KnuX · Post edited by KnuX at 2013-12-04 23:55:08

One thing I'm afraid is that the play store likes to silently upgrade itself.
So they can just update the devices they support and block you from using a newer store.

andreibechet

Ahh yes, you are right .... then f*** em :P ... let's do our own apps :p

technicus

I am doing it right now ;) at 1:10am cet :D

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