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Who Really Needs Official Flash Support On Sailfish?
  • JollaTidesJollaTides
    668.00 KarmaPosts: 526Captain
    With the transition from flash to HTML in mobile well under way, we ask is it really still worth supporting an old, dying technology in 2014?

    I suppose that during this transitional phase and while HTML isn't 'quite' there yet, some stop gaps would be nice to allow us to still access certain features that may only run on flash maybe?

    But there are many other options now to help make the transition to HTML less 'painful'. All the major OS's including android, IOS and even windows phone (gasp!) have apps or web browsers available that can enable some kind of flash functionality without the full official Adobe support, if indeed you need it.

    It may even be possible to run some of these android-based 'stop gaps' on Sailfish via the inbuilt compatibility layer?

    If the 2 major OS's (Android/IOS) have both dropped full Adobe flash support long ago, it's time to accept that flash on mobiles is going to die, and that train left the station a long time ago, so the sooner we can all board it and leave behind the under performing, browser crippling, flash technology the better don't you think?

  • aironeousaironeous
    0.00 KarmaPosts: 10Crew
    Jolla was supposed to be inclusive of technologies. By not putting flash in the browser you are putting me on the losing end of this chicken and the egg situation. Who will take the time and money to convert their website to html5 from flash for a small company like Jolla. They don't need to reach a small target audience. I don't know if we can just use the IOS version of the website by changing the user agent and then fill in the gaps with android apps maybe then you can make a case.
  • JollaTidesJollaTides
    668.00 KarmaPosts: 526Captain
    Point taken aironeous, but like I say, if we can get a flash app or third party browser running on Sailfish, then we have a solution to the problem without official Adobe Flash support.

    From what I can see, the website doesn't need to be converted to HTML if we can have an option like this.

    As mentioned in a previous comment, Android Jelly Bean didn't have official flash support either, but there have been workarounds, likewise with IOS and WP8.

    Don't get me wrong, I also see some value in having flash as an option for those who would like it, and suggest that it is still perfectly feasible with Sailfish through some 3rd party app/browser even though (like IOS/WP8/JB) the native browser does not officially support it.
    Post edited by JollaTides at 2013-11-23 22:03:29
  • FazFaz
    63.00 KarmaPosts: 37Crew
    Not really thought about this, but if it's being phased out for mobiles I guess it makes sense that it's not provided out-of-the-box for new devices.

    Been very happy with the stock browsers of my N900 and N9. Tried Firefox with Flash on N9 but went back to original browser as I saw no benefit.
    I want my physical keyboard and I want it now! =)
  • aironeousaironeous
    0.00 KarmaPosts: 10Crew
    I specifically asked this in a tweet if there would be some way to install it if it doesn't come with it. They answered that it is not supported for mobile. Stock, Dolphin and Firefox all play flash on my HTC One. When I had a LG G2x it played flash. My N9 played flash. The web is still using flash. On my HTC One It is a separate install in the play store if i am remembering correctly and it gets enabled in the settings of each browser and I am about to install kitkat in Jan so I'm way past gingerbread and so I don't know what you are referring too when you talk about a work around, I've never had to do such a thing.

    Furthermore if we are changing our user agent to an IOS browser so that we can get proper video and interaction aren't we supporting a closed source competitor by encouraging a web designed towards a closed source OS?

    I got pretty angry about this on talk.maemo.org and blew up about it (I was drinking vodka at the time sorry talk.maemo I regretted posting in anger the next day).

    The simple fact is Android is dominating the market and it plays flash. Practically 90+% of the items in my blinkfeed is going to be a link to a site with a flash video or a flash interaction somehow.
    Why should I constantly be frustrated because OMG another flash website? Or be scared to click a link?

    Do you know what it's like to try to get something done on break time or lunch time on a poor connection and you find out you can't because guess what your browser doesn't have flash? And then you go looking for an app to get around it and download it from the store and then try to log in and it sends you through hoops and email verification or log in through facebook and you can't even get done what you needed to by the time the bell rings.
    You want to go grab a dev by the neck and scream in his face "your browser doesn't work. I need to get stuff done!" And then you want to do the same to the carrier and his slow connection. And guess what, neither will get you anywhere, you are powerless.

    This is where my anger comes from, T-mobile says hey "contact our engineers" and I'm like, "Why is it my responsibility to contact your engineers because your coverage map is fraudulent and I walked it and mapped out the borders of where the signal becomes crap and proved it to you. Are you going to pay me? What am I one of your employees?"

    And then you go to the devs and they're like, "hey sorry flash is not supported." essentially telling you we don't care about you but we pretended your phone would be a tool you could use. This is what I see is going to happen with a jolla phone from the information I have so far.

    Elop killing support for the N9 plus the slow hardware and slow slow firefox on N9 had me super frustrated and angry at tmobile in poor coverage areas and at Elop for killing support. I just couldn't get anything done on my phone at work or home. It was like trying to swim through molasses.

    Now I have the HTC One and I'm still getting frustrated at tmobiles false coverage map where my home and work is. But it is much better than with the N9. I should grab my N9 and video me trying to get stuff done at lunch time on my One and then post it to youtube. Maybe then I'll get some action.
  • andreibechetandreibechet
    321.00 KarmaPosts: 219Deckhand
    I consider that not having flash included in the stock browser it is the right way to go. Look at apple ... it did just fine without ... and it decided this how many years ago? How will flash die already if some still support it. Anyways this is my opinion. I have been using non-flash mobile and tablet browsers since i can remember and haven't missed it so far. Everything which I need was in html5 or it opened in youtube or vimeo (etc).

    Although if people still need flash I am sure there will be other browsers allowing this "feature" ... although I am better of without. Flash websites are not designed to be touch friendly.
  • JollaTidesJollaTides
    668.00 KarmaPosts: 526Captain
    @aironeous

    Sounds like you have quite some problems with T-Mobile! I've been there and understand the frustration with different networks and it can be a nightmare, enough to drive anyone round the bend especially when you pay premium rates only to find poor coverage in your case.

    So, if you can already get 3rd party browsers running flash okay on android (eg. you mention dolphin/firefox), who's to say that those browsers won't work on the android compatibility layer in Sailfish or does anyone know if the flash license would prohibit this ?

    If you read around, you will see that Google does not 'natively' support flash from Jelly Bean onwards and in your case, it is HTC, Dolphin or Firefox providing the solution.

    Actually, if manufacturers support flash, (or indeed MS silverlight), they are clinging on to a 'closed' system where licenses/plugins have to be obtained from either Adobe (Flash) or Microsoft (Silverlight). The natural way to make the web truly free and 'open' is not to rely on these services but provide open alternatives in HTML.

    With a strong dev community and interest, anything's really possible with Sailfish and if Flash is needed by people, surely there will be ways to enable it.

  • KnuXKnuX
    90.00 KarmaPosts: 81Crew
    I think nowadays is more a "it would be nice, but not really required".

    Both Android and ios don't have flash. You can get the old Android version, but at least for me it stopped working with the stock browser a long time ago.
    Does WP even have flash?

    Having something is always an extra, but flash is always so buggy, slow, and I worry that running some hacked version will result in my phone eventually be exploited. So, no thanks. Go back to the 2000's, flash.
    QWERTY fanboy: Nokia N900 (Maemo 5), Sony-Ericsson Xperia Pro (Android 4.0 ICS), Samsung Captivate Glide (Android 4.2 JB), Samsung Galaxy S Relay 4G (Android 4.3 JB)
    Still miss the awesomeness of the N900...
  • blitzschlagblitzschlag
    221.00 KarmaPosts: 157Crew
    i have first hand experience with flex/flash development for a living and had to cope with endless security and performance issues for some years. I honestly can say that i'd like to see adobe go bankrupt...
    i'm not even close to be a first one
  • PJW_2273PJW_2273
    22.00 KarmaPosts: 14Crew
    WP8 does not have flash, and I can't say I miss it. Flash is now and end of life technology and over the next 5 yrs or so will probably fade out.

    I'm happy if Jolla/SailfishOS does not have it. There will be workarounds.
  • blitzschlagblitzschlag
    221.00 KarmaPosts: 157Crew
    yeah, but Microsoft (Evil Empire TM) does not have/support flash on their Phones and Tablets because they want to force developers and users to use silverlight.

    its their usual strategy.

    Anyway, flash/flex is not EOL. IMO its a good thing that the proprietary license will run out and flash/flex will be fully OS in the future. Good things may happen or not.
    i'm not even close to be a first one
  • manutmanut
    17.00 KarmaPosts: 11Crew

    I consider that not having flash included in the stock browser it is the right way to go. Look at apple ... it did just fine without ... and it decided this how many years ago?



    I don't consider that "the right way to go".
    Flash is NOT a really a "dying technology", isn't it? Recently Flashplayer 12 became available! It's obviously still popular for the desktop. The problem is that HTML5 still can't do what you can do in Flash.

    As for Apple. They are an arrogant decadent corporation that has the power to delude its customers. The reason WHY Flash isn't "supported" on their iStuff is probably completely different then what they let you believe. They started to depreciated Flash on Mobile and the others followed suit. That doesn't mean that they have succeeded.

    How will flash die already if some still support it. Anyways this is my opinion. I have been using non-flash mobile and tablet browsers since i can remember and haven't missed it so far. Everything which I need was in html5 or it opened in youtube or vimeo (etc).


    Again. It's not that "some" still support it. It's rather that a lot of companies/people invested a lot of money to produce flash-based dynamic websites. If used properly for what it is intended there's not a problem at all. So why should these people invest again to convert that same website into something else that (currently) can't do half of what's now available in Flash?

    Although if people still need flash I am sure there will be other browsers allowing this "feature" ... although I am better of without. Flash websites are not designed to be touch friendly.


    There will be other browsers... but apparanlty not on Sailfish OS :-(
    Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm married to adobe or something. But as long as HTML5 or whatever can't fully replace and even improve upon Flash, there's no incentive to change. Especially in this economic hostile climate. I too have currently more urgent matters at hand than to convert some stupid website from Flash into HTML5. As for now the Flash stuff will do. Of course, some will bow under Apple's pressure others won't. It all depends on how much money you can throw out the window to make your website all-over again.

    The only thing that I find curious is this. While Flash has been depreciated on mobile it is still alive on generic (desktop) computers. This is very weird as mobile tech increasingly becomes as powerful as generic (desktop) computers (and at one point maybe surpass it). So if mobile-Flash isn't "appreciated" why not use computer-flash?

    Post edited by manut at 2014-04-08 01:24:54
  • andreibechetandreibechet
    321.00 KarmaPosts: 219Deckhand
    Ok ... good. I agree with one point: " ... it is still alive on generic (desktop) computers". For the mobile the UX is crap because flash wasn't designed for touch. Anyway this is an ongoing discussion without any particular good solution, as I don't have anything which is on flash and not on any other mobile solution, and you do. So for that sake I hope you will get your solution as fast as possible :) (flash or nonflash).

    PS: the move to bad flash from ios devices was one of the very very few arrogant decisions apple made which I truly enjoyed :P. Sometimes the world needs such decisions if we are to move on to cooler tech.
  • JollaTidesJollaTides
    668.00 KarmaPosts: 526Captain
    Well as I predicted in earlier posts, there are ways to enable flash on the Jolla via firefox running on Android layer:

    http://www.jollatides.com/2013/12/22/tutorial-get-adobe-flash-running-on-your-jolla/

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